Papal Interpretation of Scripture-So, you're saying that as a non-Catholic I can't really know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches because it's an inside group with secret knowledge?

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#31   Sep 4, '13, 11:14 am

po18guy Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member   Join Date: April 18, 2007 Posts: 21,065 Religion: One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Hypothetical situation (I think): If the Pope stated that a particularly complicated verse in Scripture had a certain meaning, would he be speaking infallibly? Even if he were not speaking "ex cathedra," would his statement influence or sway your own thinking to the extent that you felt obligated to agree with the Pope's interpretation, even though you previously had a very different interpretation? Coming back from far afield in this thread, if Benedict XVI provided a personal opinion on the meaning of a given verse or verses, I would very carefully listen to him. I consider him to be the greatest living theologian. Since I have willingly given up so many other personal beliefs to embrace Catholicism, I would listen carefully to whatever he said. As to infallibility, all teachings contained in the normal magisterium of the Church may be considered to be infallible. Personal statements made by the Holy Father are not infallible, but that does in no way indicate that they are in error. Infallibility is normally used to combat heresy and to end dissension, as it was at the first council of Jerusalem, recorded in Acts 15. Out of 266 Popes, not a single one has changed a teaching of the Church. Just by the numbers, one or more of them should have - unless this whole thing about guidance by the Holy Spirit is true. __________________ "He was the first one in the world to break all of the commandments at once" - Bishop Fulton Sheen regarding Moses throwing the stone tablets -

#32   Sep 4, '13, 12:55 pm

richport29 Banned   Join Date: September 3, 2013 Posts: 15

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by po18guy "Whoa! I believe that you have a distorted view both of the Catholic Church, and of the purpose, intent and practical result of the Council of Trent. You do understand that Trent was called in defensive reaction to rampant rebellion and heresy in the Church?" How do I have a distorted view of the Catholic Church? Can you point to a legitimate example? I agree that there was a lot of corruption in the Roman Catholic Church at that time, which was a major point for Martin Luther, but the impetus for the Council of Trent was the Reformation. Just look at the subjects the Council interacted with, the majority of them had to do with the claims of the Reformation, including the Council's assertions on Scripture and its interpretation. Here are some sources that might lend you some help. The Refashioning of Catholicism, 1450-1700: A Reassessment of the Counter Reformation (1999)The Counter Reformation (1979) The Counter Reformation: Religion and Society in Early Modern Europe (1995), "The Catholic Reformation (1999) The Catholic Reformation: Savonarola to Ignatius Loyola: Reform in the Church, 1495-1540 (Fordham University Press, 1992) Counter-Reformation (2006) The Counter-reformation: Catholic Europe and the Non-Christian World ( 2005) The Counter-Reformation: The Essential Readings (1999) Will you be dealing with my other points? I'm beginning to think that you are avoiding the main issues. If you are not interested in dialoguing, just say so. I neither want to waste your time, and I do not want to waste my time. If you do want to dialogue, please take the time to deal with all of my points as I have taken the time to deal with all of your points.

#33   Sep 4, '13, 12:55 pm

PJM Veteran Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 9,243 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: =po18guy;11168176]Coming back from far afield in this thread, if Benedict XVI provided a personal opinion on the meaning of a given verse or verses, I would very carefully listen to him. I consider him to be the greatest living theologian. Since I have willingly given up so many other personal beliefs to embrace Catholicism, I would listen carefully to whatever he said. As to infallibility, all teachings contained in the normal magisterium of the Church may be considered to be infallible. Personal statements made by the Holy Father are not infallible, but that does in no way indicate that they are in error. Infallibility is normally used to combat heresy and to end dissension, as it was at the first council of Jerusalem, recorded in Acts 15. Out of 266 Popes, not a single one has changed a teaching of the Church. Just by the numbers, one or more of them should have - unless this whole thing about guidance by the Holy Spirit is true. Well done! Thanks, __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."

#34   Sep 4, '13, 1:11 pm

richport29 Banned   Join Date: September 3, 2013 Posts: 15

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by PJM As long as one's own uderstanding fully conforms with the pope and magisterium's one cannot [impossible too] be in error, on a verse, passage or teaching. Mt. 16:15-19 John 17:14-20 John 20:21-22 Mark 16: 15-16 Mt. 28:16-20 ALL and individually prove this fact Without clear teaching as to the specifics, how do you know that you have deviated? Your statement assumes that the pope and magisterium have an interpretation of a specific verse. You need to understand the standard before you know whether everything after the standard conforms. How do you know that your interpretation of Acts 15 conforms to the overall teaching of the Catholic Church? Would you not need the Catholic Church to interpret the texts so that you, as a pious Catholic, don't misinterpret the text?

#35   Sep 4, '13, 1:17 pm

richport29 Banned   Join Date: September 3, 2013 Posts: 15

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by po18guy "Actually, I did not. What I meant was that no one has the authority to artificially limit or constrict the meaning of God's word. There is a meaning of scripture which has been handed on to us by the Apostles, and while that is our guide, it cannot contain every possible meaning of scripture. My apologies for being unclear. You must bear with me, as Catholics are a tad bit battle weary from the innumerable and unrelenting attacks on the faith. Sadly, this has been the case since the rebellion of 1517. I must tell you that the request/demand for an infallible interpretation of each verse of scripture is a common snare laid by malicious anti-Catholics who pop in here from time to time. Even though they reject the concept of infallibility (while failing to understand how limited it is), they still make that unreasonable demand, waiting to pounce upon any and all answers they receive. I, in no way, accuse you of such activity. You really should open a thread in the Sacred Scripture forum regarding interpretation and authority. You will get a much clearer picture and many more responses from members far superior to me." You state that there is a meaning which has been handed down by the Apostles, but what is that meaning? The Scriptures are not this abstract thing "up there," they are individual books, with different genres, written within particular historical contexts, by particular authors. Although the Scriptures may have core messages, one does not arrive at those core messages without understanding the particulars. Thank you for your apology. Rest assured, I may be here to dialogue with you and understand your position, and see the consistency in your position, I am not here to ensnare you. But, you must realize that I, as a critical thinker, will point out inconsistencies, just as you would if you were to see inconsistencies in a conversation. Would you like to terminate the conversation at this time?

#36   Sep 4, '13, 1:35 pm

richport29 Banned   Join Date: September 3, 2013 Posts: 15

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by PJM "As long as one's own uderstanding fully conforms with the pope and magisterium's one cannot [impossible too] be in error, on a verse, passage or teaching. Mt. 16:15-19 John 17:14-20 John 20:21-22 Mark 16: 15-16 Mt. 28:16-20 ALL and individually prove this fact" What do these verses prove? And have they been interpreted infallibly for you to know what they mean according to the Catholic Church's teaching?

#37   Sep 4, '13, 2:47 pm

PJM Veteran Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 9,243 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: =richport29;11168588]Without clear teaching as to the specifics, how do you know that you have deviated? Your statement assumes that the pope and magisterium have an interpretation of a specific verse. You need to understand the standard before you know whether everything after the standard conforms. How do you know that your interpretation of Acts 15 conforms to the overall teaching of the Catholic Church? Would you not need the Catholic Church to interpret the texts so that you, as a pious Catholic, don't misinterpret the text? A reasonable question? Not really If and when One is a Informed and fully Practicing Catholic one eithr KNOWs or KNOWS how to find it out. Thruth is and shall always be singular, yes? __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."

#38   Sep 4, '13, 2:55 pm

po18guy Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member   Join Date: April 18, 2007 Posts: 21,065 Religion: One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by richport29 How do I have a distorted view of the Catholic Church? You're kidding. __________________ "He was the first one in the world to break all of the commandments at once" - Bishop Fulton Sheen regarding Moses throwing the stone tablets -

#39   Sep 4, '13, 3:09 pm

richport29 Banned   Join Date: September 3, 2013 Posts: 15

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture "If and when One is a Informed and fully Practicing Catholic one eithr KNOWs or KNOWS how to find it out". So, you're saying that as a non-Catholic I can't really know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches because it's an inside group with secret knowledge? Furthermore, I'm trying to get informed, but it seems to me like the "inside knowledge" is so cloak and dagger. I thought the Roman Catholic Church is transparent so that all can see how truthful it is? You know, I've done a lot of reading, from Aquinas to Kuhn, to Cardinal Newman, and I don't think I have ever heard an argument like the one you have given me.

#40   Sep 4, '13, 3:17 pm

richport29 Banned   Join Date: September 3, 2013 Posts: 15

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by po18guy "You're kidding." PO18, Was this suppose to be a sarcastic question? If it is, this is very much in line with an ad hominem argument, as if you are trying to attack my integrity or intentions. If it is not, I would suggest that you actually interact with my thoughts. I have been intentional to argue from historical data, ask a lot of questions, and seek to learn what you believe. If you are not interested, just tell me you do not desire to discuss anything further. I have already asked you 2x or 3x if you wanted to end the conversation.

#41   Sep 4, '13, 3:21 pm

po18guy Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member   Join Date: April 18, 2007 Posts: 21,065 Religion: One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by richport29 What do these verses prove? And have they been interpreted infallibly for you to know what they mean according to the Catholic Church's teaching? I must, at this point, inform you that you "appear" to be following a very predictable pattern of certain non-Catholics who enter CAF with pre-conceived and incorrect notions of the Catholic faith. Thus armed, and with little apparent desire to dialog, they seek to trap Catholics with a line of unreasonable questioning, only to subsequently proclaim they they have once again disproved, or revealed the falseness of the Catholic faith. Normally, when this is pointed out to them, CAF Catholics are accused of failing to address "points" and then of somehow insulting or victimizing the poster. Frequently, insults are then hurled at Catholicism in general before said member is banned for violating the forum rules that they, as a Christian, agreed to obey. Now, this pattern can continue and no one will learn a thing - or you, as a welcome guest here, can employ a touch of humility, admit that you may not know the actual truth of the Catholic faith, and we can learn from each other. Well? __________________ "He was the first one in the world to break all of the commandments at once" - Bishop Fulton Sheen regarding Moses throwing the stone tablets -

#42   Sep 4, '13, 3:30 pm

richport29 Banned   Join Date: September 3, 2013 Posts: 15

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by po18guy I must, at this point, inform you that you "appear" to be following a very predictable pattern of certain non-Catholics who enter CAF with pre-conceived and incorrect notions of the Catholic faith. Thus armed, and with little apparent desire to dialog, they seek to trap Catholics with a line of unreasonable questioning, only to subsequently proclaim they they have once again disproved, or revealed the falseness of the Catholic faith. Normally, when this is pointed out to them, CAF Catholics are accused of failing to address "points" and then of somehow insulting or victimizing the poster. Frequently, insults are then hurled at Catholicism in general before said member is banned for violating the forum rules that they, as a Christian, agreed to obey. Now, this pattern can continue and no one will learn a thing - or you, as a welcome guest here, can employ a touch of humility, admit that you may not know the actual truth of the Catholic faith, and we can learn from each other. Well?" Please don't play the victim. If you are going to accuse me of something, please prove it. You can look at all the posts again, and see for yourself that I have been asking questions; interacting with your thoughts; and not attacking anyone here. So far the last two posts have had nothing to do with the issues at hand, and I have tried to steer the conversation back to the main issue. If you don't want to talk, and feel like I am not humble, that I have insulted you, etc., just say, "hey, I don't want to talk anymore." But, if by chance, you do want to continue to talk, stick to the issues. If your next post does not steer back to the issues at hand, and you continue to claim unsupported accusations, etc., I'm done.

#43   Sep 4, '13, 3:47 pm

meltzerboy Senior Member   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 7,815 Religion: Jewish

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Thank you all for your replies. I think I have a handle now concerning the Catholic viewpoint on the issue. To tell the truth, I didn't expect such heated debate in this thread, which just goes to show that posting any thread, like launching an air strike, may have unintentional consequences.

#44   Sep 4, '13, 3:49 pm

po18guy Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member   Join Date: April 18, 2007 Posts: 21,065 Religion: One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by richport29 "If and when One is a Informed and fully Practicing Catholic one eithr KNOWs or KNOWS how to find it out". So, you're saying that as a non-Catholic I can't really know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches because it's an inside group with secret knowledge? Furthermore, I'm trying to get informed, but it seems to me like the "inside knowledge" is so cloak and dagger. I thought the Roman Catholic Church is transparent so that all can see how truthful it is? You know, I've done a lot of reading, from Aquinas to Kuhn, to Cardinal Newman, and I don't think I have ever heard an argument like the one you have given me. Look, let's stop playing games. You want to learn about the faith, get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies. Read up, then ask questions. __________________ "He was the first one in the world to break all of the commandments at once" - Bishop Fulton Sheen regarding Moses throwing the stone tablets -

#45   Sep 4, '13, 3:53 pm

po18guy Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member   Join Date: April 18, 2007 Posts: 21,065 Religion: One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

Re: Papal Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Thank you all for your replies. I think I have a handle now concerning the Catholic viewpoint on the issue. To tell the truth, I didn't expect such heated debate in this thread, which just goes to show that posting any thread, like launching an air strike, may have unintentional consequences. I enjoy your questions and I thank you for them. __________________ "He was the first one in the world to break all of the commandments at once" - Bishop Fulton Sheen regarding Moses throwing the stone tablets -